That is incredibly funny, complete canon knowledge woven into something really humorous. I shall probably never view Melkoth the the dark and evil lord of doom in the same way ever again. And that's just alarming. O.o
Author's Response: Greetings, xFanarix!\r\n\r\nI\'m sometimes afflicted with laziness, and my computer was down, so you\'ve probably forgotten that you reviewed my story, but I\'ve not forgotten, and I wish to say \"Thank you,\" because I like reviews, particularly intelligent reviews, and I\'m glad you seem to like my stories, even though I rarely respond within the proper timeframe, which is rather rude, and for which I apologize (and I also like writing silly sentences which are, occasionally, run-on, but are, also, accurate). \r\n\r\nSometimes (i.e. often), I get really down about my writing and decide it\'s horrible, but nice reviews (like yours) really cheer me up. Thank you! Very much! :D Not to mention, simply because I like making people laugh, I am very glad you found this story to be so funny. \r\n\r\nHehe, I have forever changed your perception \"Melkoth.\" Hehehe! ::rubs hands together:: Just don\'t tell *him* that! He\'s already sick of untrustworthy girls messing around in his life! ;)\r\n\r\nThank you for reviewing!\r\n~Still Anonymous
Movie Arwen stole not only Glorfindel's horse, but the entire scene. It's the one part of the movie I fast forward, since I have been a Glorfindel mad fan-woman for many, many years. She could not have faced down the Nazgul, and only Elrond could command the Bruinen to rise up, utilizing Vilya. It annoyed me like toothache from the first time I saw that whole scene. I keep going and reading just that part every time that bit of the film comes up, to repeat. '' It was not Arwen. '' But the fact that so many people think she did rescue Frodo, in canon, just floors me. PJ pushed out a Reborn Balrog Slayer of Gondolin for her. I can feel my blood pressure going up just thinking about it. I'm sure there were excuses, like; '' Glorfindel's not important to the film and we need more love-interest and fluff. '' Pfft. I don't care, that was entirely wrong.
Lol, I do not know about the green part, I don't retain a memory of what she wore.
There was a very distant relationship between Aragorn and Arwen, yes, but their marriage was almost like bringing the line of Beren and Luthien back together. Her brothers interest me far more, but that's just me. d;-)
Author's Response: I agree with you completely about most of what you said. Why do people keep saying they don\'t remember the bit at the end of ROTK with the dress she\'s wearing? Hmm, maybe i\'m the only one who watches that scene i don\'t know. To be quite honest, i don\'t know why Aragorn would even like her whether she\'s his foster sister or not but that\'s my opinion. At least Dan and Ro have some sense in them, or do they? I guess we shall never know for PJ cut them out of the movie as well!!!! Oh well, thanx for reviewing and have a Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate - Li
I don't know about the pairings, as I'm not good with het, I always want tp pair guys with guys.
( Dark Elf bitch sounds interesting, some-one who gets called a bitch is usually good writing material, lol, d;-).) But I reviewed to say that I like your writing, your dialogue, and the way it flows and I'm glad you've got a new chapter up. Sorry you are overloaded with work. Hope you can chill a bit at Christmas any-way.
Author's Response: I know, I have an M/M pairing in mind (Het relationships just appeared in this series) but this isn\'t really a slash thing...\r\nI may include it anyway thougn ^_^\r\nWell, hopefully she WILL be interesting... but that is unfortunately another story.\r\nAw, thanks *Hugs*\r\nChill? Oh no problem, I\'ll just go stand outside in the cold, LOL. Seriously, it is freezing over here, and with the amount\r\nof revision our teachers are setting us chilling is gonna be hard...bring on the summer! (After the exams!)\r\nThanks for reviewing!
Gemini_Elf. here is no excuse for people to hurl insults at this, in my opinion. '' Literary Critics '' rubbished Tolkien, remember? He was flatly told the Silmarillion would never be published, he became very depressed about it, since it was his '' Life work '', more that LOTR. If people give you '' constructive criticism '' that is helpful, although that should be given as a teacher would, if they looked through a paper. Do not get upset. Even '' real '' critics, in the end , are voicing their own opinons. Once I read what some said of Tolkien, I decided none were worth listening to. I do not see what the problem is. It reads well, which is always what I look for. What do they want? Toynbee? Don't worry, I have had agent's tell me my writing lacked depth, when I was 21, and was so mortified I curled up in a ball of shame. Ever after, I tried to concentrate on that, and I don't know if I have suceeded even so many years later. Each time you write, you are growing in vocabulary, and fluidity and in skill, remember that. Don't stop or be put off. Writing should be enjoyable, and something we love doing. Keep going. :)
Author's Response: XD Thanks dudette! Depression passed and now I\'m mildly better (Most of the rest of my life remains cr**) I decided to carry this on...I mean...now FF\'s a central part of my life. I CAN\'T give it up anymore than I could chop off my right hand (My writing hand) *Hugs* Thanks for your support!
Good, I have often wanted to see an obnoxious drunk get killed ;). Too short, but good, and a good way to end it.
Oddly, I have been musing on a futre plot to kill a character, and unfortunately, it nearly always is true that the one you and every-one like's the most, works best for a story. :( It's sad, but it's always more poignant than killing some-one who really deserves it. Although that is satisfying too of course. But for drama and angst and tears: the one people like should die . The person who least deserves it, and no-one wants to see go. :( That always gets me sniffing in stories and thinking '' Nooo! ''.
Author's Response: XD Sorry about the shortness! *Hands over virtual cookie* \r\nHm...I sorta had a plan, but it\'s falling through because I planned to make everyone love a character and then kill them but at the moment they seem to be a background character...\r\nThanks for the review!
I really enjoyed this! I love the dialogue and that flashback, - I like flashbacks, and how they show different insights into people - and the characterization. I'm glad you found time to update this. keep going! Happy Yule!
Author's Response: Yeah, flashbacks are incredibly useful...plus who doesn\'t love ickle elflings? Happy Yule!
I love your interaction in this chapter. Great stuff! d:-)
[ If you really want my opinion on vampires, werewolves etc; there were vampires and werewolves in Tolkien, and I for one would like to read a Thuringwethil fic. But I find that the more a Tolkien fanfic veers from canon the less enjoyable it is. My favorite stories always stick very close to canon - in my opinion even the slash ones do. But Ann Rice style vampires and werewolves with a full-moon problem cause my interest to drop off the planet, since they're very un-Tolkien and the less Tolkien a fic is the less I want to read it. I don't think Middle-earth needs things that were not in it, if Tolkien didn't write a '' race '' in they didn't need to be written, so to speak. Werewolves were fell spirits Morgoth tarpped within the bodies of beasts. As for Thuringwethil, I have always seen her as looking more Nosferatu than some gorgeous white skinned, blood-lipped thing, but I could probably go with that as it would be quite interesting. [ I don't see the '' servants of the enemy '' as being buff and beautiful, since the orcs and balrogs were not, and neither were trolls] In Middle-earth evil usually equals ugly. But making Thuringwethil a beautiful creature would be intriguing, and would interest me. However; write what you like. You should always write for yourself, not for an audience, or it wouldn't be fun, that would be more like being a journalist. >.
Author's Response: :D Glad you like the interaction! I know, I know, but I don\'t see much point in writing something no-one will like, \r\nbecause I can just toy with it myself until I get bored of it, without bothering to write it down. Yeah, the full moon thing\r\nisn\'t that interesting, and most supernatural authors I read ignore that. Technically I wouldn\'t be veering from\r\ncanon as it would be post-war, but hmm...I\'ll still need to think about it. :D Thanks for reviewing!
Ooh, very tense, and a lot of jiggery-pokery going on, I like your characterization of the baddies, it's true no villain can ever trust another one. Van has lot's of inventive ways of killing people; how about the way they killed Edward II in Berkley castle, which involved a red hot poker through a hollow horn stuck somewhere where it burned his insides fatally. They say you can still hear the screams if you wander around the castle. >.<
Author's Response: There is no honour amonst theives! Or is there is honour amonst theives? Hm...getting my quotes mixed up\r\nhere! Youchies! Sounds painful! PLOT BUNNY! lol thanks for an idea!
Gloríon could kill him, it would do him a lot of good, I think. His father died killing a Balrog, for goodness sake, he needs Elladan to remind him of that .
Actually - Glorfindel could kill him! Seth could attack him and end up mince, I like the thought of that.
Great twist - a son of Glorfindel :), but poor thing, he needs to come into his own. Mind you, I do believe that with enough bad treatment and beating and lack of hope any Elf can get to that stage, just as people can; it's different when you have a sword and are in battle.
I don't think anything is wrong with it - save I am not sure about the infection on Gloríon. I know certain poisons can kill - as Aredhel was killed by a poison spear, and why would Eol poison it? To be sure he killed Maeglin who he was aiming for? He must have known Maeglin would recover from any non-fatal wound and was making sure even a small one would kill him, if he threw awry. - but I was under the impression that with normal wounds they did not suffer from things like blood poisoning etc.
If they did, Maedhros for instance, hung up by one hand on Thangorodrim for a long, long time would have lost his arm completely I should think, or got gangrene before he was rescued. That is the only bit which I would change, since by what you read in Tolkien wounds that would kill a man Elves will heal from and I think that would include general infections.
Of course, it could have picked up a poison from some strange weed or something in the slave fields, or the Men there might have poisons.
Anyway, apart from that, good job! I would like to see Glorfindel meet Seth I think, since I always love some Glorfindel action!
Author's Response: Yeah, Gloríon\'s a bit beaten at the moment, but Elladan\'ll fire him up :D lol, I agree, Glorfindel killing Seth would\r\nbe most amusing :D\r\nGah...Stupid elven immunities. Ok, really, they rock. But in cases like these they\'re annoying...My beta suggests; \r\n\"Maybe just general ill treatment. Maybe they repeatedly re-opened the wound.\" - although that\'s more of a how \r\nfor mortals not an elf...oh, wait, now he says, \"If they were continually taking the scab off it a not allowing it to heal \r\nI doubt even the Elvish resistance would stop infection coming in after time.\" - Any thoughts?\r\n
Re Gloríon's wound. Hum, see this is the thing: Elves were immensely tough. They are supposed to be able to last indefinitely really, until their bodies fade and they just become souls, but really they are supposed to last thousands upon thousands of years.
That is why they simply don't get diseases/infections in the general way .
Some-one worked out Maedhros was Morgoth's prisoner for 19 years before he was rescued. He could not have got infections or he would have been black with necrosis and blood poisoning, since he was not well treated to put it mildly. It is one of the very clear differences between Elves and Men.
I think if it was me I would go for his soul beginning to loosen it's hold on his body, as can happen as when Elves die of grief and him * giving up * in that way.
The other way is for these men to somehow know what can poison an Elf, I don't know how, I don't know how Eol concocted a poison that could kill an Elf and I doubt he was in contact with orcs ( who might know ).
It's possible that some-one among the Men there might know and use some form of diluted poison on Gloríon to try and weaken him. They would have to be quite careful though, if it was too strong it would kill him.
Looking forward to seeing Seth and the others get their comeuppance. I will get shamelessly enthusiastic about it.
Author's Response: Litreally one or two seconds after I sent the last reply to you my beta suggested poison on the blade, deliberately \r\nput to cause more pain/prevent it from healing properly. I\'m thinking I\'ll say something like that, certain poisons\r\nCAN mess with people\'s minds causing their wills to break down, so it just explains everything ^-^ Thanks for helping!
I really enjoyed the flashback scene, it is good to discover more about Gloríon, very nicely done!
Author's Response: Thanks! Gloríon\'s character is possibly one of the more interesting ones I have created and it was great to finally be able o write about him!
Hi, Gemini. I have noticed a really huge difference in some of your earlier work and this latest, it's really becoming deeper and richer so keep going!
I think Nazgrrl is right about OC's in general. I think the only way to use them is either to have them in a chapter briefly ( and not as an important role, just " guy at the bar, " or " unfortunate extra who gets killed, " ) or to concentrate on them enough so they become as real as canon characters. I tend to use " unfortunate extra " lol, as too many OC's do shift the focus from the main characters of the story and I think people like to focus on the main ones, either canon or OC. But I don't think that shows any weakness in your actual writing style, more of an experimental phase with different characters, which is actually good considering how many people focus solely on Legolas and OFC for instance and don't even want to try out different characters. But i would tend to agree than unless they are really necessary to a plot, they can be ditched.
I am a perpetual editor and always going back and changing bits, so when you've edited, I'll go back and re-read and give you some feedback.
Author's Response: XD Thanks! Well, it's been a year since I started writing, so I hope it has improved ^_^ Alright, I've got the thumbs up for the editing thing, so I'll go and fix that at some point before saturday, when I've got some spare time
Lol, you seem to have covered it all. I've only read a few MS stories and have now given up, but they do all seem to be like that. Poor Boromir always gets vilified by them, and I have no idea why, he seemed to me a man of nobility and valor, who loved his country so much that his temptation to use the Ring is perfectly understandable.
Author's Response: I definitely understand why you gave up. I love Boromir and I agree with you about him. Thank you for reviewing!
I love this poem, it reads like it would sound beautiful set to harp music. [ My Maglor muse just told me, lol d;-) ]
Author's Response: That\'s a good idea
Nice to see Silmarillion characters! :) And yes, a lot of people forget Eol forged Gurthang [ or Anglachel ] . An intruiging character, who is not every-one's favorite, but I feel is not delved into enough, so great to see a story written from his viewpoint, and first person. More soon , I hope.
I still say, first, that I do like your style of writing, smooth and easy to read. I think the timeline is a bit dodgy, if you consider how long it takes Elves, and probably half elves to mature. If she is also Beren's daughter, she would have to be born after 468,[ The Hunting of the Wolf and Beren and Lúthien's return from death were in 467 ] and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad was in 471. Hurin was captured there and held by Morgoth for 28 years while the curse Morgoth laid on his family unravelled. If you have Acacia as Beren and Luthien's daughter she would be 3 at the most, unless she's some-one else's daughter, born earlier, but to tear apart the story of Beren and Luthien like that would be really...well, handle with kid gloves! The Dagor Nirnaeth, despite it being an overwhelming defeat for the Eldar, was planned by Maedhros and Fingon, as well as the other Noldor. It was supposed to be a great victory, and Hurin went off to it in high hopes. He also would never have been angry with the Elf Lords, he loved them. The Noldor and the Edain were marching on Morgoth and thought they would win. It sounds here as if Hurin did not know anything about it, and he would have, indeed the men of the House of Hador were prepared. '' Then why is no army being called? Why are there not more being requested? '' There was one ready, and they all marched out - not one came back.
I assume you have read UT and Children of Hurin, which deals more with Hurin and Turin and the aftermath of the Dagor Nirnaeth. In this, Morwen is coming across as rather a weak, cuddly character. Morwen was proud, and stern, that shows all through the tale of Turin, she never showed weakness, except perhaps when she was alone. She may have been '' kind and caring '' inside, but she hid that behind a personality of pure steel, she is [ along with Haleth ] Tolkien's strongest female character in sheer strength of will.
I think the idea of a daughter of Luthien is interesting, if handled very, very carefully, since people who love the Silm are usually passionate about not upsetting canon too much. ( You won't get flamed on here, as it's a site violation, and I think that's a good rule, flames are rude and pointless and never constructive, but you will get Silmarillion lovers pointing out things which don't fit canon, even if it is AU. ) And unless Acacia is say the daughter of Luthien and Daeron ( who loved her ) I think her age presents a problem, I don't see how she can be Beren's with the time-line, unless she was a toddler, which she's clearly not. So we have to assume she's some-one else's? And then there is the whole story of why Luthien would have abandoned her. If Acacia was born in Doriath of a love affair [ going by AU not canon, as to Elves sex = marriage ], Melian would have looked after her, if for some reason Luthien didn't want to. ( And I can't see that ) If she was born later, in Tol Galen and was Beren's daughter, she would have been safe there until Beren and Luthien died. Even the son's of Fëanor did not assault Lúthien while she lived. In any case a daughter would probably have gone to Doriath at some point. We really need to know why a cherished baby of Lúthien would be abandoned where she was. I certainly want to.
The idea of her living with Morwen and Hurin is intriguing. Morwen had dreadfully hard times after the battle, when the Men who served Morgoth invaded, and as we know, eventually Turin was sent to Doriath. It's a tragic, and quite intricate time to write of. You've got two of the greatest stories of the Sil coming together and that involves a lot of checking dates and reading to make it sound realistic. At the moment there are only questions, but it is only the first chapter, and you may have already worked them out. Luthien was still alive, but she was not, then, in Doriath, she was in Tol Galen. Does Acacia end up going to Doriath with Turin? If she did, Melian would know who she was. Or does she end up somewhere else? It's potentially a wonderful subject to write of, but deserves to stay as close to canon as possible, since the Silmarilion is the foundation stone of Elvish and Mannish History and should be cleaved, to insofar as you can. Again, I like your writing and I think there's enormous potential in you and the story. I only go through these questions because it does interest me, and I want to see you write in all the answers and come up with a really excellent story, which I think you can. I wouldn't bother otherwise. The thought of tackling it myself gives me a bad head, frankly, so you deserve praise. Both views could work Modern day, or preferably, Middle-earth, since I definitely think Acacia would be too much for our era, but we need a good story of why Lúthien would let a child be abandoned in the wilderness. I also do not think she would be fair, actually, Lúthien was dark, most Elves were save the Vanyar, Thingol was silver haired, yes, so silver haired I would buy.
Acacia does not sound good as a name, I have to say. http://www.realelvish.net/ does have name lists which make stories sound far more believable.
Good luck! Look forward to the next chapter. I really would not bother with this enormous review if I thought you weren't capable of turning out a truly great tale. You're too talented to be allowed to fall into the Mary Sue - canon slaughtering pit. This might be AU, but it can be good AU. d;-)
You write well, I like your style. I like the story you began of Eol. I usually do not read stories set now that end up in Middle-earth. Not my cup of tea, though I did write one, and it trawled from Dagor Bragollach to the War of the Ring. Pretty much a self insert which I am now ashamed of. However: people can write much better than me and make these stories work and you do write well! Please avoid the Mary Sue-self/ insert trap. The long descriptions of the girls looks remind me of MS stories, except again, you write much better, but there is an awful lot of it, beauty brains, wonderful character, - great singing voice? - all these qualities. Characters with flaws actually give us readers something to connect with. Few will like a gorgeous, brainy, slim, girl who seems to have no faults at all. I understand that you are setting the stage with her, and that you are drawing her in this chapter. We all do that, as it also helps our own vision of our characters, and they come alive as we write them. Since you have a good, fluid style, all I can beg you - on bended knees! - is not to make this character a Mary Sue, but a good, strong believable, likeable young woman. I strongly think you can. It's possibly that she is just coming across as too perfect as you have set her in a very mundane place; school. No place is more horribly mundane except perhaps a public toilet. In Beleriand she would just fit right in! d;-)
You asked for a review, so I hope this is a constructive one. I only bother, if I see great potential, and do not want it Sue-d d;-)
Author's Response: Wow. I read both of your reviews and I just cannot thank you enough. It was so hard to try and think of a beginning of some sort, (and I have to admit I was a bit caught up in my own life, so I just tied it in >_<;) and well, this is what came out. Now you do have me thinking about whether I should change the setting of the beginning and instead of trying to work out the kinks of some strange sci fi story where time and demensional travel is possible (she is suppose to end up in Middle Earth again one way or another), I could just keep it in one world and leave it at that. But then a small part of my mind keeps telling me that I want her to be completely new to everything, like an Alice in Wonderland type effect. Where in Arda could be a place where there was no stories about the old ages or about anything she might actually know? Another part of my reasoning was that she could have her parents in her memory, but somehow recieved memory loss and doesn\'t remember who she is. Kind of cheesy, now that I think about it, but hey, for a first book, I kind of wanted to go a somewhat easy route. xD\r\nI agree with her need to stick out a bit more and be a little less flawless, but I was coming from that same aspect; as compared to all of us of today\'s age, she would be flawless. Now that I look back through it, I do pull off a Mary Sue character a little too strongly, that will be fixed asap. This is a weak attempt at a small book rather than a short story, and for me switching from small to large is a bit hard; a lot of detail that I seem to be lacking. \r\nOnce again, thanks for the advice and the compliments about my writing and hopefully I\'ll have an edited version if not even more up soon. :D
Oh I see now, apologies, I read the part about her being Lúthien's daughter. Now of course, yes, she is going to be beautiful - remember how beautiful Dior was? In fact she is going to stick out like a beacon on a black night in this age! No matter how the films portray Elves, they were unearthly beautiful compared to Mortal's, probably unimaginably so, to us. She would be more stunnning than the most beautiful supermodel, and probably would look - to us - like some sort of angel, inhuman, in fact. This story would be potentially excellent if it was not based in this age, where Lúthien's daughter would simply not fit in at all. She would make Liv Tyler look like a hag. [ And if her adopted parents had any sense she would not be in school but would have been modeling for about 3 years already and earning pots of money. ]
As I said I am only responding, because I like your writing, love the Elder days and want to see more writing set then. You have every right, being who she is, to stress her magnificence, in fact you've probably flown way under the envelope, since she would be indescribable, really. She just does not fit in with the modern age, though, it's a pity to put her here, really. She belongs in Beleriand or in Aman. She's too much for this later and greyer age.
I like the character of Lúthien, because she was not just '' beauty '' courage and wisdom and loyalty and love were all in her personality. I think her daughter would be the same. this could be a very interesting piece of work, if only she was not '' here ''. If she has to start here, you have under-rated her incandescent looks actually. [ There is a time for verbosity about beauty and Lúthien is a case in point, and of course, if she had had a daughter ditto ] But to make it work and not for people to think - oh *another * gorgeous, flawless Mary Sue, I think you could have '' flashbacks '' to Doriath, or her parents and then readers will know why this girl is so '' perfect '' and not dismiss her. No sane person hates Lúthien, it's '' fact '' that she was the fairest of all the Children of the World, and we accept that.
Just an idea, but it would intrigue people, me certainly.
The Silmarillion is the best. No offence to LOTR lovers, but that is just the last '' installment '' in a vast story from the time of creation itself. And my own writing is going to go a long way beyond the War of the Ring. Happy reading of it. I must say the only Elf who really interests me in LOTR in Glorfindel, who was also in the Silmarillion. Ah the Eldar then, they burned, at the time of the LOTR they're fading or passing into the west. Stuff that, I wouldn't have that, a world without Elves is like life without chocolate; it might not be exactly necessary to live, but would we be without it? Good luck with your writing and time in NZ.
Author's Response: True, life would be harder without Elves and or chocolate. I\'ve read some of your stuff and it\'s really good, how much i hope my friend doesn\'t read this coz \r\nshe thinks i don\'t read your stuff coz that\'s what i told her but it\'s good and i\'m sad i didn\'t read it before last week sometime. Don\'t ask, please. I\'ll try and have a good time until next Thrusday, that\'s when i\'m finally leaving, i\'ve been here three and a half weeks almost and it\'s begnning to get boring coz i can\'t do anything except write my fics and talk to to Gemini_Elf but that\'s alrighgt. Thanks for reviewing - Li
A change is as good as a rest when you're writing. You often read published authors saying; " I've always written. " But they don't write the same things all the time. It's good to stretch your wings in other areas. I wrote historical romance/adventure and fantasy sci/fi a long time before Tolkien fanfiction. Any writing is good practice, I think and good for just stepping away from Real Life!
School can be brutal. I didn't do much writing in my last 18 months, my head was too stuffed with Shakespeare and Milton and British Economic and Social History. I didn't mind the English actually, or the history, it was just so unremitting, one thing on top of another.
I have got to know a fair few Wiccans over the years, mainly through joining forums about the Paranormal. One guy I knew years ago now runs his own forum with his fiancee. There are a lot of people of every belief on it and it's a really interesting place to talk, read about peoples experiences etc. It's very friendly and not age restricted ( It's a Proboard Message Board )
I'm not Wiccan myself, I'm Christian but I have no objection to other beliefs and learned a lot by reading people's thoughts and beliefs and about their lives. It's called The Paranormal Tavern and the Admin, Faeden and his fiancee Ajagsfairy are lovely people. He's a very interesting person himself with some amazing life-experiences, although he prefers to call himself a Pagan, rather than a Wiccan. When I went through a very bad time, he and a few others ( all Pagans and Wiccans ) were amazingly supportive and I'll never forget it. It annoys me when people label them as Satanists etc.
You can buy books and look at links of course, but for a forum which is friendly, multi-cultural/belief and safe as well as interesting - lol I just read it like a book! - I recommend that. If you just type it into the search engine it will come up.
Author's Response: Thanks for the suggestion, might have to check that out when i have spare time. School\'s gotten even more brutal and it\'s second week back!! Oh well, i\'ll get over it, hopefully. Well, this is something unheard of, i can\'t reply to a review . . . Anyway, i\'m all set for starting this new story so now, all i have to do, is go through my powerpoint and add in all the chapters i forgot about ^L^, it wasn\'t my fault, it was the . . . pixies that ate my breakfast and lunch yesterday ^L^ Anyway, thanks for the review and the Wicca stuff, info, whatever you can call it. Thanks again - Li